Stop Spouting This Baloney That Anyone is Being Shouted Down
Absolutely excellent comment in response to this drivel from Charles Krauthammer, someone whose opinions and analysis I usually respect as being spot-on. But he is dead wrong on this issue and I am glad there are many out there taking him to task for it.
[Via DrewM at Ace of Spades HQ: Krauthammer: Health Care Protesters Are Hurting The Cause]
If he’s so right, how come support for the Health Care Takeover keeps falling?
Some backlash, where the “bad guys” keep getting more and more supporters.
Like I said yesterday in regards to this whole “be nice, everyone, just be nice; don’t shout them down” crap:
Who’s being shouted down? Nobody, that’s who. It’s a false flag, a lie that anyone is being “shouted down.”
How are questions being asked if all that’s happening is people being shouted down?
How are responses being heard if all that’s happening is people being shouted down?
No, the “shouting down” meme is a stupid frame manufactured and disseminated by the royalists, the elite and their willing acolytes so as to shift the debate and obscure what is happening: Voters ask their representative a question, the elected representative lies and dissembles whereon the assembled voters — in pure democratic American tradition — respond to the bullsh#t.
At every single one of these townhall and other meetings the elected representative has ALWAYS, always been given a chance to speak — it is when they fall into their rote lies and propaganda that the displeasure is express by the peaceably assembled.
So stop spouting this baloney that anyone is being shouted down — the only thing that is happening is the thieves and crooks in our employ are stealing from us and lying about it. This stupidity about them being shouted down is idiotic to the highest degree — it allows them to avoid the reason there is even any shouting in the first place: They are refusing to answer questions; not being shouted down.
“Oh, my tender sensibilities, oh my goodness, this vagabond rabble is so very uncivil. Oh dear me, I say: No points awarded for such barbarous rancor — this debate must conform with a modicum of decorum. We simply have to allow the respondent a proper time for reply.”
Have you not been paying attention — Are we not the conservatives, have we not stood by for 8 years of the most vile and base calumny dredged up from the fever swamps and stagnant ponds of the left? As this pernicious infliction has rained yet more blows upon our liberty and freedom, do you think we failed to seek redress, neglected the set channels of communication? Which of our elected have we failed to call, overlooked in our writings, lost from our mailings? Who of them has not heard a hundred thousand times already — if not more — by these civilized methods now brought round again for another circuit as if for the first time?
We have not failed by foreclosing proper opportunity for response: We have failed because we expected a response; we were naive enough to wait for a response.
Posted by: jimmuy8 at August 11, 2009 12:41 PM
More great comments:
I think one of the biggest problems, or the source of the problems we face as a nation stem from the political class’s lack of fear.
It seems that since FDR, there are no consequences for pol’s. They can do whatever they want in D.C., and think they’ll be reelected if they just say the right things in October/November. For the most part they are right. Look at Jack Murtha: says we’re the enemy, essentially calls his constituents racist hicks, and gets reelected!
A little anger towards the reps now and again is just fine by me. Let them know that they are supposed to represent us and serve at our leisure.
Back when the country had a spine, they would have been tarred, feathered and run out on the rail
Posted by: anctrekker at August 11, 2009 12:50 PM
Farmer Joe beat me to it. There’s no way this would be getting covered in the MSM if not for the fact that people are pissed off. In this regard, there’s no such thing as bad publicity.
Also, I don’t believe this is just about the healthcare bill(s). This is a continuation of the anger that resulted in the tea parties (Rick Santelli’s shot heard ’round the world is still echoing).
Congress obviously didn’t get the message that the tea parties were sending, what with their trying to steamroll nationalization of 1/6 of the economy through before the August recess, adding 300 pages to Cap & Tax overnight and then voting a bill that no one could have read, leaving placeholders in a bill being voted on, laughing about passing bills without reading them and all.*
No, this isn’t just about healthcare. It is about the tyranny of incompetence that flows from a bloated federal government that is spending us into oblivion.
* How much longer does this list have to get before it becomes “a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism”?
Posted by: Andy at August 11, 2009 12:51 PM
Ck is dead wrong. The anger has forced the outrageous comments by Pelosi et al. It exposed them like nothing else could have. We’ve been doing it Ck’s way for too long. Had that country club gentrified thing goin on. It does’nt work. A fit of pique works very well, like “I paid for this microphone.” Gotta get in their faces to get ANY attention.
Posted by: bulwhacker at August 11, 2009 12:52 PM
“In the meetings, ask all the questions you have breath for”
Why? We don’t meet our representatives in order for them to give us information. We meet them in order for us to tell them what to do. These people are supposdly our public servants. It’s high time they were made to understand that.
Posted by: flenser at August 11, 2009 12:53 PM
More with which I completely agree:
congress is not held in very high regard – how is yelling at them going to anger anyone. I would feel worse if I saw someone yelling at a bum perched on their front stoop (not a high standard). I thought O’Reilly calling out Barney Frank was not only great theater but perfectly appropriate in its disrespect for someone who doesn’t deserve respect. this high minded debate standard is fine and dandy if you want to lose.
Posted by: ed at August 11, 2009 12:54 PM
I usually like and agree with the big K, but he is wrong this time. The dems have showed us over the past 8 years that civility politeness is for suckers. Its past time to play by their rules. “Get in their faces” “hit them twice as hard” is how the dems want to play, so lets us do the same.
Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at August 11, 2009 12:54 PM
Would our country even exist if the founding fathers hadn’t been pissed off and rowdy? If they’d quietly reasoned with the Brits? I don’t think so.
Posted by: Peaches at August 11, 2009 12:56 PM
Andy McCarthy, even better:
I am not, and would not, endorse criminal mob behavior. But exhibitions of anger and spirit when one is justifiably angry and spirited are entirely appropriate. Making clear to a pol who is trying to insult your intelligence that you don’t appreciate it is entirely appropriate.
Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at August 11, 2009 12:57 PM
And more good points:
Agreed – Look at our founding fathers. They tried all of that and more with King George but it never got them any where. Not to mention that people have tried everything under the sun to get them to listen. If we can follow this up with a massive turn over in the seats next year then people will look back at this time and remember that they had better pay attention to the voice of the people.
Posted by: Roadking at August 11, 2009 12:58 PM
“Are we cool with voters on the other side coming to future townhalls to yell and scream?”
They don’t already? Where were you between January 2001 and January 2009?
I mean, in 2004 union thugs in multiple states attacked Bush-Cheney campaign offices, vandalizing them and injuring campaign workers. During the 2008 Republican convention, lefties tossed bags of cement onto a bus filled with delegates. Bush couldn’t make a speech to a Boy Scout troop without someone letting a Code Pink hag in to shriek and wave fake-blood-stained hands, and whenever he took a break from the White House the cameras camped around Cindy Sheehag. In 2008, we had the NBPP “poll watchers” threatening violence against anyone who admitted voting against Obama — and then you had Holder letting them off without penalty.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 11, 2009 12:58 PM
Krauthammer is wrong.
He is a pretty good guy, but not infallible and this time he is not considering the issue from all angles. But that’s due to his “wiring” as an Ivory Tower kind of guy. We don’t have time for that calmness luxury, right now, since time is of the essence. Krauthammer gets his uninterrupted say on the FOX cable news panel every night and gets his columns syndicated and digested by a wide audience. That is an advantage the rest of us Americans don’t have.
Sure, in a perfect world – or even in a televised debate between two equal candidates — it is EASY to be calm and state your case rationally and have a really nice debate.
However, Town Halls are not set up that way. And the average attendee is frustrated at not being listened to… and being told to shut up by congressmen too arrogant to (1) read the bill and (2) even pretend that they have read the bill.
No wonder they are angry. And as much as they may try to hide their emotions, it is just not always possible.
So has this modest, but vehement anger by the Town Hall attendees helped their cause any?
Oh, hell, yes!
If it hadn’t we wouldn’t even have had this discussion. It creates a disturbance and when disinterested parties hear about it and investigate a little further, they start to see things a bout the bill that THEY DON”T LIKE… and now they join in the opposition, in whatever way they deem effective… by writing to their congressmen, sending emails to friends and relatives, logging on to various sites at the internet to inform themselves.
So, again… has this anger helped?
YES — HELL, YES!
Posted by: Juliet16 at August 11, 2009 01:25 PM
I understand Krauthammer’s point and agree with it on an intellectual level but i also understand Rush’s point and agree with it on a practical level. Obviously, you should make your case on the facts and evidence. The problem with making a calm, reasoned argument with thugs is that they aren’t persuaded by tight logic but by power. Obama and his thugs will steamroll over reasoned objections and laugh at the naivete of their opposition like Tony Soprano chuckling at a citizen’s complaint. Union thugs don’t deal in reasoned debate. The SEIU are Obama’s skirmishers and they’ll leave your well-thought argument bleeding in the street.
The shouting and rudeness is an argument itself. Democrat congressmen want the people to pay for their healthcare scheme and STFU. Ferociously confronting them breaks that game up. It signals in no uncertain terms that they have run afoul of their constituents. It tells them they have seriously screwed up and best retreat on this course of action.
I have spent a few years watching the counterprotests of the antiwar marches in DC. I can’t help but notice that vigorous opposition to such antiwar protests effectively drives away the bulk of their marchers. Most of them are only casually attached to their cause for social reasons and drop out when it ceases to be fun. Likewise, many members of Congress are only fond of ObamaCare because it will give them more pork to distribute. However, if such support drives them out of office, it ceases to be fun. Protestors should make a point that it will not be fun.
Posted by: Tantor at August 11, 2009 02:28 PM
More good comments from a second post on this issue by ace at Ace of Spades HQ:
With due mountains of respect to Dr. K, Ace….. you also thought the bailouts were necessary and a good thing.
No offense, but I think you are wrong about the necessity for people to stand up and be overly polite. It has never worked. And in case you haven’t noticed the other side won and these were the tactics they were using. It is important for the people to show their real feelings… all this kabuki theater crap is just that… crap. So you and Dr. K want people to pretend to not be angry… you want them to be phony?
That’s not an option… they should act angry.
Why? Because they are angry ace, this isn’t political theater it’s reality, and the people are really angry.
Now, once we have the politicians attention then we need to politely but very firmly… shouting if necessary…. use facts to bludgeon them.
And on the other side… they are now saying that socialist is the new “N” word.
Still want to play nice ?
Posted by: christmasghost at August 11, 2009 03:36 PM
Sorry, Ace. It’s the heat that is bringing more light to the light that was there before the heat. (Trust me. That does make sense.)
Some righteous anger is needed. Now, can someone go over the top? Sure, but that proves it’s also effecting people to their core. This is no Brook’s Brothers Brigade or act. Authenticity matters, and even clumsy emotion intertwined with valid grievances draws support. How much is too much (righteous anger)? I dunno and it would depend on the makeup of a particular audience, but up to this point, the conservative movement hasn’t been nearly boisterous enough. Furthermore, righteous anger’s contagious.
As to this particular man and his beef, may I remind you that an enormous percentage of our population is religious. An appeal to justice from the supreme being rings true to many when it is so patently obvious that the constituency is getting lied to and abused. It’s an admission that voters have lost faith, utterly, with government and will seek other sources to address their needs. You can bet that that disgruntled voter will carry his message to a much larger audience than any who might support the given policy.
Posted by: AnonymousReduxDrivel at August 11, 2009 03:44 PM
And now MY contribution in response to ace — once again — wussying out and attacking people who are the ones trying to stop Obama and his marxist minions from destroying this country:
We can either have these idiots providing dogfood evasive answers and outright lies, thus getting them to drive voters into the opposing camp through their bad arguments, or we can have a self-indulgent can-you-top-my-anger-YouTube-“celebrity” contest and drive people to the other side with our bad arguments, such as “God will take care of you, buddy.”
This smear of some people’s expression of anger and frustration as merely “a self-indulgent” effort to get their YouTube moment is worse than the Left-wing smears I keep having shoved in my face that the anger is manufactured astroturfing.
Why is ace’s YouTube moment accusation worse? Because it comes from our own side.
Who are you, ace, to accuse people of not being sincere in their anger and accuse them of simply putting on shows to get themselves on YouTube? Seriously, who the f*** are you to say that?
Your accusation is as arrogant and smearing as the mass media smearing TeaPartiers and questioning their motives and sincerity.
Maybe, just maybe, people are pissed the hell off and this is how they express their anger and frustration with their government? Oh no, that can’t be it, it HAS to be that people are just flying off the handle at their lying douchebag representatives — who for weeks now have been calling their constituents right-wing extremists, terrorists, NAZIs and now “un-American” — in order to get on YouTube.
I side with Andy McCarthy and Bill Whittle:
Here’s a final, quick little thought for you.
Saul Alinski wrote a book called Rules for Radicals. Hillary Clinton wrote about it in her senior’s thesis. And if Hillary Clinton learned from it, Barack Obama taught from it: the term community organizer was coined by Alinski and was the centerpiece of his theory that the socialization of America could best be accomplished from within the system since Americans were alert to revolutions forced upon them from the outside.
One of the Rules for Radicals is Make the enemy live up to his/her own book of rules. Think about the genius of that. Just let that sink in. When a Republican has an ethics scandal, it’s “hypocrisy” and “double standards” and all the rest. But when a Clinton or a Pelosi or a Charley Rangel or a Chris Dodd or a Barney Frank or a William Jefferson has an ethics scandal, no one bats an eye. Why? Because of course they’re immoral! They’re Democrats.
Alinski could see that moral people have to be held to moral standards when immoral people do not. We’d better learn a lesson from this, right quick. …
Alinski and his followers want you to believe that if you fight dirty in response to people fighting dirty with you, then you have lost your morals and in fact your identity. But that’s a lie.
We are in a political fight to the death with people who will stop at nothing – and I’m not talking about your average decent Democrat, but rather these Alinski radicals. And if we don’t face the same realization as those Marines on Guadalcanal and give back as brutally as we have taken, then we will lose.
Which is what they want. And if we do lose to these kind of tactics, there will be no more decent people left in politics. …
Posted by: Michael in MI at August 11, 2009 08:55 PM
This commenter is on the same wavelength with me:
There were a a lot of people in this country just before the declaration of independence that wanted everyone to be polite and calm and reasoned too.
What were their names again?
I really think it is insulting for anyone to imply that these people at these meetings are shouting to get on youtube. Oh, fer chrissakes… get real. How much more insulting to the American people can you be without being a progressive democrat?
Posted by: christmasghost at August 11, 2009 03:50 PM
“Bad arguments persuade people.”
Hey, no kidding? Arguments like “Bush Lied, People Died”?
Or how about “We’re the only country in the developed world that doesn’t provide health care to everyone”?
You and Krauthammer are assuming that people are rational actors in this. They are not. WE are not. Health care is a life-and-death thing, both for our bodies and for the Republic.
This “be polite and we’ll persuade people” krep has allowed us to be steamrolled all the time. We can’t fight an atomic bomb with a squirt gun.
The jeering and booing and the townhalls is not designed to persuade outside observers, it’s to let these morons in congress know that we’re not buying their lies or their condesension, and that we’re just passionate enough to vote against them next time.
The critters won’t be intimidated by politeness. They will be intimidated by passion.
They’re supposed to be afraid of us, remember? Unless they see the raw anger, frustration, and passion in person, they won’t believe that they’re vulnerable.
McCarthy’s right: The Left is playing hardball. We’re fools to not return in kind.
Posted by: dicentra at August 11, 2009 03:53 PM
One guy yelling “God is going to send you to Hell” is a fruitcake. Same guy yelling that when 100 people are backing him up is a threat.
Look. There is no civil discourse to be had here. That’s why they are lying through their teeth at every one of these Town Brawls. That’s why they’re bringing in the thugs. It’s not about civility; it’s about force, and who has the power to use it, and who has the balls. Realpolitik. The Chicago Way. The Left has the power (majorities), but they don’t have the balls because of the counter weight being slammed over their heads in this last week or two.
Health care reform health insurance reform single payor private option is dead, and it’s did because these people are one twitchy pillowcase from a tar and feathering and they know it. The words aren’t important. The tone is, though, and it’s safe to say that the supporters of ObamaCare have gotten a good sense of where their constituents stand. Again, there is know way to civilly discuss the death of an American’s freedom. There just isn’t.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 11, 2009 03:56 PM
Of course anything can go over the top. I think the real line is between yelling at them to answer the question when they lie or try to BS around the issue, and then swearing and cursing. The former is helpful, the latter is not. But this is the time, this is the issue to get mad as Hell and let the politicians know it.
Calm, reasoned debate wins nothing except a feeling of moral superiority. It’s become the conservative’s way to take a consolation prize from every argument, but it’s ONLY a consolation prize.
And calm, reasoned debates takes two calm, reasoned sides. The politicians are not being reasonable. They don’t get to invoke gentlemen’s rules while lying to our faces. They should feel lucky they aren’t swinging from a lightpost already.
Ask the hard questions. Don’t let them get away from the question. That takes more than “Please, sir.”
Posted by: Shillelagh at August 11, 2009 04:03 PM
I could not have said this (comment below) any better. And I mean that in the literal sense, not the figurative, as I am reading ace’s ‘reasoning’ and getting extremely frustrated and annoyed. But, I guess that’s simply because I have had my eyes opened to the truth about ace of Ace of Spades HQ: he really is not a principled conservative, he is simply a fence-sitting, squishy ‘moderate’ who jumps from one side of the political aisle to the other based on whichever side’s spokesmen are pissing him off the most. Sad. But this makes sense now after the trend of his attacking and smearing Rush Limbaugh for the “I hope he fails” comment, which led to his “we can’t say this or that in this or that way for fear of looking bad in the eyes of the Left”, which led to attacking and smearing Sarah Palin over her decision to resign. I stated at the time that I had lost faith in ace and did not believe that he would be someone I would trust to have by my side in a political fight over an issue. His stance here just proves I was right in my assessment of him. He does not have the backbone to do what it takes to fight the political fight and would rather attack and criticize those who are out in the arena taking the fight to the enemy.
“I bet if I asked you guys why you support capitalism, or American exceptionalism or conservativism, 90% of the answers would be about the dog-food nonsense of the other side. You have been driven to the conservative side largely by how absurd the liberals’ arguments are.”
Bullsplat. I’ll take your bet and I’ll raise you a lifetime of conservatism. YOU may have been driven to the right by the absurdity of the Left, but I wasn’t. Lots of us weren’t.
Let me show you, right here, right now:
I support capitalism because it is the only economic system that is compatible with freedom and liberty. I support it because it produces the largest amount of wealth in the shortest amount of time, and provides more opportunity for people to participate. I support it because it unleashes the creativity of the unwashed masses, which leavens the whole loaf and raises all the boats. It is also the only economic system that leverages human weakness to the greater good.
See? Not one reference to Leftist garbage.
Lemme do that again:
American exceptionalism is rooted in the fact that ours is the only nation in the history of human civilization that was founded on ideas, not on an accident of geography, the decline of an empire, or the ambition of a few.
Given that, anybody can be an American: anybody from anywhere in the world can come here and be a REAL American as long as they become citizens. No other nation has that element (except possibly Canada).
We are also exceptional in that we are a world hyperpower with absolutely NO interest in conquest or territorial expansion. When we defeat our enemies, we brush them off, give them scads of money to repair the damage, then help them become prosperous trading partners.
Again, no reference to the LEFT.
I don’t know why you’re still persuaded that BAD arguments drive people in the opposite direction. Obama’s campaign was nothing BUT bad arguments, and he still won. They all won.
Because humans are not fundamentally rational people. They don’t sit there and ponder whether one argument is better founded than the other. They don’t assume that the quiet rational guy is right because he’s quiet and rational. They assume that the screamer might just have a point, because otherwise, why is he so riled?
It sounds more like you’re worried that we’re looking bad — again — to our enemies, and you’re trying to, what’s the phrase?
Serve God without offending the devil.
Get off the fence, Ace. This is a cause worth screaming for.
Posted by: dicentra at August 11, 2009 04:07 PM
Yep, ace has pretty much no credibility with me now. Not that it matters to him or anyone else, but… just sayin’…
“F#ck you. I love the geniuses who think that because I haven’t decided to give in to simply venting an angry, wounded id, and have instead chosen to retain my intellectual facility and judgment, I’ve “sold out” or have insufficiently committed myself to Team Crazy.”
Posted by: ace at August 11, 2009 04:08 PM
You haven’t decided to give in to simply venting angry, wounded id, yet you just responded to some criticism with “F#ck You”. Yeah, very consistent there, ace.
You’re calling on town-hallers to show civility in the face of lying, smearing and getting called “right wing extremists”, terrorists, NAZIs and “un-American”, yet you yourself can’t take by a little criticism from your readers without resorting to “F#ck you”.
Practice what you preach then maybe you will have some credibility.
Until then, a hearty “f#ck you” right back atcha, pal.
Posted by: Michael in MI at August 11, 2009 09:53 PM
Bingo. 100% spot-on correct:
Why is anyone talking about strategy in regards to these townhall meetings? These people are American citizens voicing their concerns with their government, who are we to interfere with them or whine about how they make certain political parties look anyway. They are free to do what they want we can’t stop them if we wanted to and we shouldn’t want to.
Posted by: SomeSay the Strawmarian at August 11, 2009 04:10 PM
Heh. Good point:
And I thought I had an inside-the-beltway mentality. And I actually live inside the beltway.
You can’t micro-manage a genuine grass roots movement. People are going to get angry, probably say things they regret, and that’s just going to be part of it, like it or not.
You want to be part of a perfectly choreographed, well-orchestrated 100% genuinely spontaneous grass-roots movement you’ll need to join “Organizing for America.” They have a web site. And an email list. And a guy in the White House…
Posted by: Planet Moron at August 11, 2009 04:12 PM
Ace getting bitch-slapped for being an a-hole. GOOD. He deserves it.
“I thought the guy screaming about his son with CP getting “no care” came off as an uninformed boob, and not the sort of person whom I, were I undecided in this matter, would listen to.”
That’s because you don’t have a son with Cerebral Palsy to take care of.
In fact, the most challenging moments in your life are those when your laptop goes on the fritz, not to mention something as serious as Cerebral Palsy.
And, oh irony of ironies, what do you do when your laptop goes on the fritz? You hit your blog site, pleading and cajoling for someone to take care of you and get you a loaner.
So, it doesn’t come as much of a surprise to learn that people with relatives with Cerebral Palsy don’t trip your empathy meter.
If you have one.
Posted by: Paul A’Barge at August 11, 2009 04:12 PM
Ah, and now we see ace has officially gone batchit crazy. Brilliant. Now we know why he steals much of his stuff from AllahPundit at HotAir. They have a lot more in common than I thought. Two peas in a pod.
>>>So, it doesn’t come as much of a surprise to learn that people with relatives with Cerebral Palsy don’t trip your empathy meter.
Again, F#ck You to Team Crazy and their belief in the righteous, cleansing power of the Lord’s Rage.
Posted by: ace at August 11, 2009 04:14 PM
Amen to this:
All the handwringing and strategizing in the world isn’t going to change what’s happening at theses townhalls. The people there are not under some command structure and cannot be ordered to tone it down. This is what grassroots anger looks like. Sometimes its coherent and firm, and sometimes its frothy with spittle.
I’m an angry a-hole and I vote, and I am legion.
Let the politicians beware.
Posted by: toby928 at August 11, 2009 04:21 PM
“That generation knows how to lay on a whoop-ass. So let them.” Hell freaking YEAH!
The screaming and yelling comes in response to the non-answer answers, triangulations and outright lies. So they should shout them down. The guy with the kid in the wheechair? They booed Dingel saying that Congress would introduce an ammendment to take care of his kid. Because it was a bullchit, get out of my face, sop of an answer. So f#ck you Dingel, and the crowd did precisely that by calling out his bullchit.
These people have called and advocated and emailed and pressured. The one thing the scum from Congress understand real well is unemployment and there is nothing more closer to that than getting a tongue lashing from your boss. They deserve it and we should be encouraging more of it.
The AARP lady showed her and the Org’s true colors when she stormed out. I think that kind of stuff is priceless. P-R-I-C-E-L-E-S-S. It shows how corrupt and in bed these representatives have become. “Yea b!tch, do you work for us or do we work for you?”
Ace, you are on the wrong side of this with CK. We are not rolling over and we ain’t letting the republic get rolled by some half-wits. When grandma and grandpa get mad, old f#ckers in Japan and Germany wake up in the middle of the night, sweating and screaming, perhaps even with soiled pants. That generation knows how to lay on a whoop-ass. So let them.
Posted by: Old Texas Turkey at August 11, 2009 04:22 PM
Great points here. And if ace is so pissed off about the people going to these town halls, there is nothing at all stopping HIM from getting off his ass and attending one. Jim Hoft at Gateway Pundit has gone to plenty of them in the St Louis, MO area and done some great reporting to get out the facts. At the very least, he can see for himself who are the people attending these things, do some actual researching and reporting, instead of sitting on his ass in front of his computer and bitching about people who are out in the arena doing their civic duty to stop Obama and his marxist minions from destroying the country.
You know what, Ace? You, and CJ, and Krauthammer, and Palin – you’re not going to stop people like the “hellfire” guy from speaking out.
The guy was passionate, more than a little nervous, and he probably said things he normally wouldn’t say in mixed company. So what? So he’s human? Does that mean he deserves to be written off as “not one of us” because you’re too embarassed to be associated with someone who believes the dems will burn?
It’s not like he’s a Stormfront racist. He let his anger get the better of him due to mistreatment. How about cutting the guy some slack instead of demanding perfection out of everyone that dares to speak out?
This kind of crap allows the left to paint one statement by a nervous, angry person as a respresentative of the entire movement. He represented himself. That’s it. Why the hell do you feel like you need to be embarassed because of
Posted by: grognard at August 11, 2009 04:23 PM
Americans are angry because most of these twits have already decided to vote for a bill that doesn’t really exist yet and will take away yet another freedom no matter how the final version reads. When they rightfully attempted to question their duly elected representatives about it, they were lied to or basically told to shut up and color. That kind of arrogance from someone who theoretically works for me would make my blood boil too.
When the people you elect to represent you fail to even attempt to do their jobs, sometimes all that is left is to get angry and tell them in no uncertain terms that this will not stand.
Next year’s elections are still too far off for them to have any real meaning to those in power. They feel our memories are short and for the most part they are correct.
With an American media that has abdicated its role in our society and is solidly in the left corner, just how does one make his voice heard?
Posted by: Bill R.somewhere in (or on) the right at August 11, 2009 04:24 PM
This absolutely nails ace to a tee and expresses my thoughts I had after reading ace’s stupid comment about being driven away from conservatism by “Team Crazy”. Someone does not give up their principles, simply because someone else is “crazy”.
“Team Crazy even drives away hardcore conservatives like me.”
Then how hardcore can you be, really? You’ll abandon your principles because some loon makes you look bad?
In whose eyes? Who is this audience that has you so embarrassed?
The LEFT? You’re embarrassed because they have AMMO when Crazy Joe starts hollering about the apocalypse?
That’s the fence you need to get off of, Ace. I’m not saying that you have to go crazy yourself to prove that you’re “authentic.”
I’m saying that you’re letting the wrong people set the terms of the debate. You’re letting THE LEFT decided whether you’re a fool or not.
Because, let’s face it, they are far more sophisticated than the right. THEY sip free-trade café au lait while the right guzzles Slurpees.
This is a lesson that Christians all have to learn: when you choose to be a follower of Christ, you chose exile. You will NOT be accepted or respected by the world. You have to choose between your desire to be accepted and your desire to be a disciple.
By the same token, when you choose conservatism, you will NOT get the respect of your peers in the law, nor in academia, nor in the media, nor in many other professions and walks of life.
You’re a smart guy, Ace. You’re a lawyer. You’re intellectually gifted. But the one weakness that intellectually gifted people have is that we would rather die than be thought fools by our peers.
Your arguments for civility over craziness betray too much concern over how your peers perceive us.
Posted by: dicentra at August 11, 2009 04:24 PM
Yet more great points:
“I’m not saying anger isn’t useful or warranted.
I’m saying that anger alone is not the message.”
Of course not, but that’s what gets the air time, because the air time is controlled by the Left, and it is their solemn duty to make us look like loons. The alternative is to bring flowers and chocolates to the town brawls, and the message on the Nightly News would be “These are the pussiest Nazis we’ve ever seen”. So the message about who we are, and what we beleive, is already prepackaged and sold as fresh. It’s not about convincing Mrs; Smith sitting in front of the boob-tube at home. It’s about informing Congressman Bandersnatch that his job is in trouble. And it’s working.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 11, 2009 04:25 PM
“But I see a lot of angry people, whose anger far outstrips their persuasiveness, getting their YouTube moment and turning what is a critical debate into an all-about-me fame contest.”
Frankly, I see a lot of aging people who don’t know what the f#ck You Tube is, and are pouring their hearts out in rage at the prospect of losing their freedom. Suggesting that they moderate their tone smacks of the orchestration the dems have outrageously accused them of.
Average people have very few if any opportunity to hone skills necessary to speak publicly about that which enrages them. To demand that they tone it down a bit suggests they know a thing or two about formal debate, and the experience to tone it down when a point is being lost. Most of them are astonished they got an opportunity to voice their opinion in the first place, and are merely acting normal under the circumstances.
I think it is a bad time to be attacking an ally, even if you don’t like the tactic. Next time, send them a talking points memo. That should drive the passion out of the debate and allow Pelosi to win her point about astroturfing.
Posted by: Derak at August 11, 2009 04:25 PM
“The screaming and yelling comes in response to the non-answer answers, triangulations and outright lies.”
Yeah, I think that’s pretty much correct. What I think is being missed in this whole discussion is that people have been calling, writing, faxing their representatives for years about various things and they’ve gotten the same bullchit types of responses. I think you can trace a lot of the current anger back to amnesty v2007. The people saw a giant piece of chit that they did not want but they also saw their senators and representatives jumping on the bandwagon to get the thing passed ASAP. I think that one is still fresh in a lot of people’s memories. TARP is definitely part of this, as it was not popular when passed and has become even less popular since then. People were very pissed about the GM and Chrysler bailouts which were passed against their objections. The stimulus stabilization was at the time supported by the majority but is now not loooked upon very favorably.
My point is that this anger comes from Congress once again crafting massive legislation and trying to pass it immediately while claiming that it has to be passed immediately or the world is going to end and if it’s ok if you don’t understand cause we’re Congress and we know what’s best for you so just sit down and pay your taxes while we pat you on your little heads. This is why people are angry and they’re sick and tired of being treated like peons.
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at August 11, 2009 04:47 PM
Very, very well said:
Damn, Ace. I could slap you when you get like this. You always think it’s a personal attack when people disagree with you, not so much in the policy way, but the tactics way. You turn into a raving lunatic and then you jam your head firmly up your ass and scream strawmen at people.
How is your head up your ass? Good question.
You are laboring under the misconception that this is about a piece of legislation. It’s not. Sure, it’s sh!tty legislation, but it’s a symptom of a simple disease: The government of the United States has turned against the people. This is about control, not health. And everybody knows it. It’s not that Congressmen are lying about the legislation that has everybody warming up the tar and plucking the chickens, but that they are lying about why they are doing it. They are sending bought and paid for muscle to beat us down. They are labelling us “political terrorist”, “un-American”, and sh!t like that. Hell Hank Paulson threatened martial law to get our Representatives to support printing 700 Billion for TARP. I am of the opinion that any government official who believes that martial law is ever an acceptable policy prescription in the United States should be subject to summary execution for treason. Does that make me an extremist? Perhaps.
Your paradigm is wrong. People are getting loud because they are scared shitless, not of socialized health care, but of tyranny. We are on the verge of an unescapable economic meltdown. People have lost their wealth, whether in their houses, their investments, whatever. And the government, which is not of the people anymore, makes moves to essentially enslave us? Pull your head out of your ass. People are scared, and they are trying to stay free. Don’t ever expect them to achieve that quietly. That’s f#cking suicide.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 11, 2009 05:56 PM
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
“We don’t read and write poetry because it’s cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race. And the human race is filled with passion. And medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life.
But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for.
To quote from Whitman, “O me! O life!… of the questions of these recurring; of the endless trains of the faithless… of cities filled with the foolish; what good amid these, O me, O life?”
Answer. That you are here – that life exists, and identity; that the powerful play goes on and you may contribute a verse.
That the powerful play *goes on* and you may contribute a verse. What will your verse be?” — Professor John Keating, Dead Poets Society (1989)
———- ———- ———-
“Treat a man as he is and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.” —Ralph Waldo Emerson
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“The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, to have it make some difference that you have lived and lived well.” —Ralph Waldo Emerson
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“Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”
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“A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency or simply to swell its numbers.”
—Ronald Reagan 1975
“Don’t give up your ideals, don’t compromise, don’t turn to expediency — and don’t, for heaven’s sake, having seen the inner workings of the watch — don’t get cynical.”
—Ronald Reagan, 1976
———- ———- ———-
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Rorschach’s Journal. November 12th, 1985: Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout “Save us!”… and I’ll whisper “no.”
———- ———- ———-
“You see, Doctor, God didn’t kill that little girl. Fate didn’t butcher her and destiny didn’t feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night, He didn’t seem to mind. From then on I knew… God doesn’t make the world this way. We do.“
———- ———- ———-
“Men get arrested. Dogs get put down.”
———- ———- ———-
“And I am reminded, on this holy day, of the sad story of Kitty Genovese. As you all may remember, a long time ago, almost thirty years ago, this poor soul cried out for help time and time again, but no person answered her calls. Though many saw, no one so much as called the police. They all just watched as Kitty was being stabbed to death in broad daylight. They watched as her assailant walked away. Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. —Monsignor, Boondock Saints (1999)
———- ———- ———-
“Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.” —Il Duce, Boondock Saints (1999)
———- ———- ———-
“Now you will receive us. We do not ask for your poor, or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick. It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we shall hunt them down. Each day, we will spill their blood till it rains down from the skies. Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal, these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost. There are varying degrees of evil, we urge you lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over, into true corruption, into our domain. For if you do, one day you will look behind you and you will see we three. And on that day, you will reap it. And we will send you to whatever god you wish. And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to Thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine Patri. Et Fili. Spiritus Sancti.” —Boondock Saints (1999)
———- ———- ———-
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